Doug Todd blogs in the Vancouver Sun on Point Grey Road. His post is indented; I add my comments afterwards.
The residents in the mansions on Point Grey Road in Kitsilano were given what they wanted from Vancouver city council a few months ago – virtually all cars were stopped from using the road in front of their seaside homes.
The residents in the mansions were minor players. This was an initiative based on long-standing policy supported by many people, mostly south of PGR and elsewhere in the city.
Point Grey Road is now supposed to be a walking and bike route.
But it’s mostly a ghostly, empty swath of pavement.
As are parts of the seawall, beaches and even roads at various times of the day and year. At other times, overcrowded. “Mostly” is still to be determined by the data being collected.
For the many people who wondered if at least some of Point Grey Road’s residents are self-absorbed complainers with a deep sense of entitlement — there is, unfortunately, more evidence.
Some residents of Pt. Grey Road have put up signs in front of their multi-million dollar gated seaside homes reading, “Slow Down. Kids playing.”
The signs, I believe, are provided by BCAA, and found throughout the region.
The signs, like the one outside 3019 Point Grey Road (marked “Property of M.L.”), are a fiction.
No one in recent memory, including me or those I know who live in the neighbourhood, sees children playing anywhere near Point Grey Road. It’s probably one of the most kid-free streets in the city.
Well, let’s see how this works out, now that it’s safe for them.
UBC historian Henry Yu, who used to drive along Pt. Grey Rd to campus, has been among those who noted that these residents have long worried about the safety of non-existent children – making his views clear in a guest column in The Vancouver Sun, headlined “Children’s charade along Pt. Grey Road finally ends.” But it hasn’t.
I am anything but anti-bike. I raise this complaint about this new so-called bike route despite being a cyclist who was active for years in efforts to make Vancouver a more cycling-friendly city.
This is so true. Doug was one of three guys – he, Lorne Whitehead and Mark Roseland – who came to me as a councillor with a proposal for a bikeway network in Vancouver. It became the major cycling initiative in the city (next to the creation of the Seaside route) for the next decade or so.
I appreciate the advances that have occurred in the city for cyclists. I’m not even necessarily opposed to what has happened to Point Grey Road.
My jury of one is still out on it. Indeed, I gather some of the road and path alterations for the route are not yet quite finished. So things could get better this summer.
My guess: by the end of the summer it will be clear that PGR is a necessary component of the Seaside route.
Still, in some ways the Seaside bike route proposed for Kitsilano seems to be turning into a fiasco. It’s in a kind of limbo — largely because of resistance from Kitsilano residents. I will be researching it more in the future, since it is indeed a complex situation.
But I have noted that an aggressively outspoken activist from Kitsilano Point, Howard Kelsey, has been among those who was ecstatic at forcing the parks board to stop plans for a bikeway near Haddon and Kitsilano Beach parks.
Despite the praise he seemed to get in most media coverage, Kelsey’s resistance to change is among the things messing up the situation for the rest of us Vancouverites who dream of a bikeway along the Vancouver waterfront, from Canada Place, around Stanley Park and all the way to UBC.
Curious, isn’t it, that Doug just made the case for PGR: it doesn’t require putting a path through a park or along a shoreline.
The current unresolved situation in Kits-Point Grey leaves cyclists, like me, having to take our lives into our own hands to navigate a dangerous stretch of road to get downtown. That is the car-filled Kitsilano route along Cornwall, between Cypress and McDonald.
Which is why York is being developed with connections to PGR. Doug has rushed to judgment without understanding the overall design.
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I note that Harcourt, the former Vancouver mayor and B.C. premier, is one of those trying to make a pitch for people getting out and actually using the emerging Kitsilano-Point Grey bike route.
And I regret I’m adding to the bad press that closing Point. Grey Road to car traffic has already received. But it seems necessary to say something in light of the unhelpful haughtiness of some residents along Point Grey Road and elsewhere in Kitsilano.
“Unhelpful haughtiness” is a creation largely of the opponents to the closure. Explain, for one, Nelson Skalbania. And it matters not whether it particularly benefits the rich or poor in any of its parts: the Seaside greenway is a benefit for everyone.
(A last word for now…. For the record, I go one step further than many. I would prefer an elevated promenade for pedestrians and cyclists in front of the houses along Point Grey Road)
Another letter writer today with the same opinion:
The only way to have waterfront access is to build a seawall along the base of the Point Grey Road cliff, as was done in Stanley Park and around False Creek.
And that’s exactly what is not going to happen. There are too many legal, environmental and social obstacles in the way. As Doug points out, we’ve reached the point somehow when many think a bike lane is an inappropriate addition to a park. Imagine trying to do one on a beach or largely natural shoreline. Today, face it, the Stanley Park seawall would be an impossibility.
So if the seawall could not be extended along the water, PGR is the next best choice – and a necessity.
That’s Mike Harcourt’s point: PGR “brought to completion the April 6, 1886 vision started by our first council — to open Vancouver’s waterfront to all our people.”
Children especially.
A Seawall would cost tens of millions. A better option would be to spend that money to buy up a few more of the houses along Pt Grey to create more park space and improve the views for people walking and cycling along Pt Grey.
Pt Grey road is hardly waterfront.
Better than before, of course, so a step in the right direction.
Why not add a 2m to 4m wide concrete pedestrian, or even biking sidewalk below the Point Grey road homes between Jericho and Kits ?
Since the Point Grey houses are 10m+ above they wouldn’t even notice and their view would not be impacted. Another win/win.
Where is the leadership here in Vancouver ?
Environmental concerns always ought to be secondary to human concerns.
It is a disgrace that today a seawall would not be built around Stanley park due to “environmental” concerns. What , to protect the birds and the fish ? They will find other habitat, elsewhere that is as good or better. In a city of 2M, soon 3M+ people environmental concerns need to be third or fourth behind human, job and infrastructure concerns !
Where people live the environment will be impacted. Let’s minimize this, of course, but being pro-environment today means essentially being against humans or human progress, or advocating high cost of living !
BC has loads of water, forests and hinterland. The issues close to Vancouver are different than issues 20km or 100km or 500 km away.
For example: there could be land built west of Richmond or Delta in the shallow marshlands, dozens of square km of land useful for agriculture, industrial or residential use. Why is this not done ? Because of “the environment” !
A bridge could be built to the Sunshine Coast via Bowen Island to Gibson. Why is this not done ? Because of “the environment”.
A bridge could be built to Vancouver Island, via one Gulf Island. This would bring tremendous job opportunity to Victoria which is dieing, sucking on the government’s teats, with young folks leaving due to lack of jobs. It could be a thriving harbour with 1000’s of new jobs due to major infrastructure investment.
There could be a new road to Powell River, or into Lynn Valley or up behind Seymour and Deep Cove into Indian Arm with tens of thousands of new dwellings, now all squeezed into highrises.
I, for one, want less highrises and more expansions into the vast hinterland around Vancouver.
There is LOADS OF LAND in BC, including land close to Vancouver that could be used. The reason why Vancouver has high house prices, condo values and rents is because none of this is even contemplated. “the environment” is the root cause of these very high cost in Vancouver.
Why is there no major harbour in Squamish, Victoria, Gibson, Powell River or Sydney ? Why is there a container or oil terminal in Burnaby or downtown Vancouver ? Perhaps we ought to expand our view, and perhaps, just perhaps, move the container terminal from a high cost, highly residential area in Vancouver or the oil terminal in Burnaby to, say Squamish or Gibson with appropriate connecting infrastructure for rail & trucks !
We need decent industrial and commercial growth and sensitivity to the environment where warranted. In BC it seems everyone bow to the God of the environment or its brother “climate change”. Perhaps we are worshiping the wrong God here !
I’m glad that the builders of the Stanley Park seawall didn’t think it was too difficult or expensive. Thanks to them we now get to share one of the greatest public spaces in the world. A seawall from Balsam to Alma would be an enormous gift to future generations worth every penny.
I’ve been told the shoreline in that area is far from original or “natural” and is already heavily influenced by nearby development. Destroying one man-made shoreline and replacing it with another man-made shoreline should face zero environmental opposition. Does anyone really think Second Beach is naturally sandy?
Ultimately the decision not to build another seawall is the right one, but not for any of the reasons listed above. There is only one good reason: all our seawalls will be completely under water in a few more decades. Point Grey Road will be soon enough too. Let’s enjoy it while we can.
The oceans are rising ? Really ? Warmer climate, if it exists, will absorb more moisture. Don’t believe all the global “warming” fear mongering !
I know I shouldn’t reply to you, but don’t you think that the scientists making these predictions have taken this into account? And will the additional water held as water vapour be taken from the ocean or from cloud cover? And if it is from cloud cover, mightn’t that cause further warming? I don’t know the answers to any of these, but I doubt that you are any better placed on that score.
When I was in high school in the 1970’s we had this group called “The Club of Rome” which essentially preached that we run out of resources in the 1990’s, not enough oil, not enough coal, not enough copper .. then in the 1980’s we had the ice age predictions, acid rain, dieing forests and ozone layers all destroying humanity in unbelievable proportions .. all fear mongering tactics proven to be quite manageable or outright untrue.
More here, for example, there are many such references: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/01/19/great-moments-in-failed-predictions/
Now that global “warming” has proven to be a hoax, we call it “climate change” and when we realize that the climate is actually always changing, socialists will invent yet another catastrophe that needs bigger and bigger governments or worse, the UN, to fix things.
In the mean time, I will enjoy the seawall, or in the absence of it the newly traffic calmed Point Grey road as this is the topic of discussion here.
Douglas Todd needs to be held legally accountable for his negation of the children living on Point Grey Road and all the children living in the immediate area North of 4th Avenue using Point Grey Road, as well as all the visiting children from other parts of the city now using Point Grey Road. If I were a parent, I would be outraged at Todd’s supercilious dismissal of my children. As it is, I am outraged that he elects to determine that my neighbour’s children are a fiction! How dare he! I demand that he prove his false assertions or make a full retraction of his article forthwith. Let this be a most sincere warning to Mr. Todd, and thank you Gordon for setting the record straight.
And I’m outraged that you’re apparently easily outraged.
Ever see children playing on point grey road? Even as a child back in the fifties no one played on point grey road first and second avenue or the beach or Jericho park were much better places to play. I think you protest too much.
Garry, for starters, I guess you did not look at the numerous photos of children on their bikes on closed Point Grey Road posted on this website in just the past few days before you posted the above comment. And, considering the fact that you do not live on closed Point Grey Road, it is not surprising that you have not seen the users on this road, including children. Further, it is not up to you to decide where other people’s children should or should not, do or do not, play.
When the seawall was completed around Cooper’s Park (just west of the Plaza of Nations), the City required Concord to put the new seawall on piers (less environmental impact), instead of having a solid wall that was backfilled (as was done for the rest of the seawall, included the adjacent part of the Cooper’s Park seawall already built). That’s why the seawall changes design just west of the Plaza of Nations.
You can see the change in this (small) pic:
http://s3.amazonaws.com/mrp-listings/7/7/2/7892277/67ff90883d84f41f87bd9c4c549d6b13.jpeg
With a bit of courage and a few dollars we could have a floating walkway / bikeway connector several hundred meters off shore.
wow susan, give it a rest. you got your closed-off street. people are allowed to have different opinions to you.
maybe next up on the creme-de-la-creme’s agenda is a bit of love for the rest of vancouver, especially the parts south and east of kits and fairview.
Bar foo: of course people can have different opinions, but an opinion is just that — hearsay unsupported by the existing evidence. Educated people do not put stock in opinion but in fact. Douglas Todd’s commentary is contrary to fact and guilty of misinformation for the purpose of manufacturing controversy. You are guilty of the same falsifications: Point Grey Road is not “[my] closed-off street.” It is a street that belongs to all Vancouverites and visitors, and it is regularly used by those individuals. I am also far from being “the creme-de-la-creme” of Vancouver’s society, nor was the closing of Point Grey Road to commuter motorists initiated or brought about by “the creme-de-la-creme”; it was driven by very ordinary residents of the city (a real cross-section of society) in fact, including business owners on 4th Avenue. Facts, Bar foo, facts.
Really Susan? Before you go on about people playing fast and loose with the facts you might want to read your last post. Nothing factual there. Doug Todd’s piece was an opinion piece and was written that way. No one really has the facts because city hall has kept all the data secret. Everything about the point grey road initiative smelled from the get go. I don’t know if you ever showed up at some of the so called information meetings the city put on but full ninety five percent of the people at those meetings were completely against the closure. In fact I could name the people who were for it the closure quite easily as they were at most of the meetings and they were the same three or four out of as many as two hundred so before you start speaking about the facts perhaps you should go have a look at those results and speak to some of the participants. You want your bike road ? Fine. But don’t try to fool us into thinking this adventure was anything more than offering a quiet careless road to residents of the ” golden mile”
Garry, your are also guilty of falsification to manufacture controversy. Regarding my involvement with the closure of Point Grey Road: I attended the public forums, which began over two years ago, the two Open Houses hosted by the City last year, the information meetings at Queen Mary school, Henry Hudson and Kitsilano library, the stake holder workshops held across from City Hall, private neighbourhood meetings scheduled with council members, and informal gripe sessions held by naysayers outside the Sunset Grill and inside the Point Grey neighbourhood church. Moreover, I gave a presentation at City Hall and was involved in gathering over 2200 petition signatures in favour of closing the road. Provide factual evidence of your claim that “full ninety five percent of the people at those meetings were completely against the closure. In fact I could name the people who were for it the closure quite easily as they were at most of the meetings and they were the same three or four out of as many as two hundred.” If you are not able to provide that evidence, Garry, your comments are meaningless, intended only to try to mislead the uninformed. I challenge you, here, to provide those names and proof of that 95% you claim. As I attended the meetings with the City and others regarding the Point Grey Road closure, I know for a fact that you cannot provide such evidence; the facts are, indeed, the reverse of what you claim. Readers of my posting here, please look at the results from the questionnaires and surveys conducted by the City prior to the closure of the road. Literally, thousands supported the closure of the road. Also, watch and listen to the speeches given at City Hall last summer just prior to the City Council Vote on closing the road. Two hundred members of the public gave presentations to council, and the majority supported the road’s closure. All of this information is easily available through the City’s website at Vancouver.ca, including a video stream of all the speakers. Readers of my posting here can watch the video stream and read the City’s survey and questionnaire data for themselves. Your claim, Garry, of 95% against the closure is pure hogwash. Either you are lying about attending the meetings and just guessing erroneously at the public’s views, or you attended the meetings and are knowingly lying about the public’s views.
Why would anyone be against this road closure ? There are only winners here, namely bikers and pedestrians first and foremost, but also local residents whose property values will rocket upwards by at least 10% due to a quieter road with almost no traffic. The only people bitching are likely those commuters that are now forced onto 4th, and by now they have already gotten used to it.
There is no going back here. Only forward. The question is why this has not happened 10+ years ago! and why it is not done on a far wider scale in many other traffic plagued neighborhoods.
95% opposition ? I doubt that very much ! Maybe 0.95% !
Yes, Thomas, the law-breakers and drag racers have had their speedway taken away, so a few of them are throwing a tantrum, like Nelson Skalbania and Randey Brophy. They’ll kick and scream for a bit, as little boys do, when you take away their most dangerous and exciting toy. But, once they realize that more mature and cooler heads have created a better and safer environment for them, they’ll fall off into dreamland sucking their thumbs.
Facts, Susan, are that the people who benefit most from the closure of Pt Grey road are the (largely wealthy) residents of Pt Grey road itself. The next beneficiaries are the (largely wealthy) residents of the surrounding areas, who now have a nice new recreation area). Next comes people from the rest of the west side and maybe the West end.
I really pleased for you that you got your closed-off road, given all the energy you put into the fight. I don’t even mind that my tax dollars are partly paying for it.
I would believe that it’s of benefit to “all the residents of Vancouver” when I see the city willing to spend a few million dollars to improve the walkability/liveability of, for example, the vast condo desert along Marine east of Knight. Or pretty much any part of the city south of King Ed, east of Main. Maybe you should take a trip out to where the plebs (by Vancouver standards) live.
I’d be more sympathetic as well if I saw the city making an effort to improve cycling safety over the Knight street bridge, for example. (I know that’s not entirely their jurisdiction, but it’s not like anyone cares in city hall anyway). Thanks to city policies, pretty much all light industry has moved to Richmond or Burnaby or beyond. So ordinary people have much more at stake in improvements to the east and south side of Vancouver than where the creme-de-la-creme live.
Blinkers. You look down on us that are not enthusiastic about your victory, because we can’t afford to live in your nice west side neighbourhoods. Maybe if took the time to understand what it’s like to live in the rest of the city you might see why we’re a little tired of all this attention given to a road in an already amenity-rich part of the city.
Sorry I can’t meet up to your legalese standards. Luckily for you, the hour or more on the bus that it would take to cross Vancouver and make use of your nice street isn’t practical with little kids, so you can enjoy your street without at least some riff-raff from East Van sullying it.
Bar foo, you are welcome on Point Grey Road anytime; try skytrain if the bus is a problem for you, or hop on your bike. I also agree with you that more needs to be done in other parts of the city to improve neighbourhoods. I suggest you do as I did: pick a project and work long and hard on it for two years. The likelihood is that it will pay off in the long run. Gordon Price has posted in the past couple of days that he just made a call to the City about repainting faded crossing lines on a street, and the repainting was done the next day. Depending on the nature of your project, you may receive a fast or slow response, but be persistent. As I have already stated earlier, I am not creme-de-la-creme. And, I can tell you that judging by the numbers of cyclists, runners, skateboarders, pedestrians, etc. now on closed Point Grey Road, the vast majority are from outlying areas, not the immediate neighbourhood alone by any means. Once we have the City’s traffic counts on the road, this will be a proven fact.
My last thoughts on this. You live in an area that’s already privileged with wealth. Not only that, it’s rich with amenities and transit. It’s so glib to say “try skytrain” – it takes a 15 min ride on a bus that runs every 20 mins (and you can never be sure the next one will arrive) just to get to skytrain. Ride your bike then – well, all of the city’s money and energy is focused on bike paths for the west side and downtown – so how does that work?
All those people using Pt Grey road to get to Kits beach? Well, they’re coming from the west side, or else they wouldn’t be using Pt Grey road..
Like I said, good luck on getting your nice new road and parks and cycling trails. I’d believe you and the council were sincere about making the entire city more livable if there was equivalent time and energy and money focused outside of the west side and the new yuppy areas in downtown. Reality is, “green” and “livable” is for the favoured few, the rest can just suck in their cars out east and south.
@bar foo
No comment on the wealth aspect. But I think it is important to improve amenities in all parts of the city. I think Point Grey road was more about traffic calming that it was about a bike lane, but traffic calming is evident on Adanac and other roads not on the west side. Let’s figure out what other roads would benefit from similar initiatives, and suggest them to council. For cycling, there is currently Adanac/Union, the Central Valley Greenway, and the BC Parkway under the Skytrain line. There are additional crosstown bike routes further south. On the furthest south end of town, there are big improvements being made along the river with the new developments, and I think it will be important to connect them all. Kent Avenue and that area should be improved, for example, and I think the city recognizes this. The Marpole plan shows several areas that are targeted for improvement. On Point Grey Road we waited too long and couldn’t assemble waterfront properties. We have a chance, collectively, to do a better job south of SW and SE Marine Drive.
Bar foo, I genuinely wish you well in your attempts to lobby City Hall for road and traffic improvements in East Vancouver; I agree that they are needed everywhere. Residents, neighbours and City Council members began lobbying for the closure of Point Grey Road in 1992; the closure was achieved just this past January, as you know. So, it was a long, hard battle, if that gives you any comfort. It takes dedication and determination, and even some luck. Good luck and keep us informed if there is anything we can do to help and rally supporters for you.
It is misleading to suggest that “by the end of the summer” would be a good time to measure the success of PGR as a bike route. By Labour Day one will have had the benefit of the three best months of weather to give an apparently glowing review. What about the other nine months? If usage of other bike lanes is any indication, ridership will plummet during that wet majority of the year. Give that the demand drivers of this largely recreational route are beaches, perhaps a more prudent course would have been to close the street from May through September to vehicle traffic.
And for those naysaying a seawall below Point Grey Road, just remember the attractions along that point are those same beaches artifically created by dumping tonnes of imported sand over the the natural shore.
The stretch of seashore from Macdonald to Collingwood used to be and still is a smelt spawning area. TWENTY years ago if you walked along that stretch at high tide you couldn’t avoid wading through hundreds of smelt. I don’t know where they are now.
Exactly. Cities are always enhancing the natural environment to fit their needs. I wish though they had left a few old growth trees in now urban parks such Pacific Spirit Park.
Bob, there are nice days throughout the year. Lots of people were walking, jogging and cycling along Pt Grey back in Febuary. November is the only really rainy month.
I walk there even in the winter, too, and the road noise used to be disgusting. Now it is pleasantly quiet. The closure is a done deal. Let’s move on to other areas of town that surely could use more traffic calming so car is not king, but pedestrian / biker / kids.
The traffic calming along Point Grey Road has made it an excellent running route. I took a few pictures while I was out for an early morning run last Sunday. Even before 9 am there were steady streams of cyclists and runners along the route.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/canadianveggie/13873369215/ – including someone running with a baby stroller, unthinkable before the changes
https://www.flickr.com/photos/canadianveggie/13873347205/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/canadianveggie/13873318385/
I concur with canadianveggie. The traffic calming has been a huge boon for runners, including those training for the BMO Vancouver Marathon and Scotiabank Half marathon, both of which run down the road.
Point Grey Road is now far more than a commuter arterial, or even a bike lane. It has become a multimodal ‘athletic (or recreational) highway’ to use a phrase from an earlier Price Tags post, and will contribute toVancouver’s ‘healthy city’ ambitions.
Indeed. A good first step in teh right direction !
The beauty of Vancouver is the water front and the mountains in the background. Once you are 2 blocks off the water MUCH improvement is possible as downtown is quite ugly, still car infested with narrow sidewalks and no pedestrian zones whatsoever, and many residential streets anywhere are essentially build in the 1950’s or earlier for cars, cars, cars .. MUCH room for improvement here !
Or course ridership will decline in inclement weather, as it does on the other closed roads in the city, but there are many die-hard cyclists that pound the beat no matter what the weather; they are out on closed Point Grey Road daily. Similarly, runners and pedestrians who use the road as part of their daily exercise regimen do not stop for the rain. Come out to the road and see for yourself.
Who uses the new Point Grey Road?
I read much anonymous conjecture here about who rides their bikes on new PGR. So I took out an accurate map and drew a few lines based on the following. Where people cycle a lot, the average distance per trip is 5-7 km. And yes, of course, there are some that travel longer distances, and some shorter. But these are good representative numbers.
Even for an ancient 69-year-old geezer like me, 5 km takes about 17 minutes by bike, and 7 km about 25 minutes. This is leisurely riding (the only kind I can do), and I rarely break a sweat.
Centred at the intersection of PGR & Macdonald, a radius of 5 km includes: all of the West End, all of the downtown core out to Quebec St., all of False Creek, and all of Vancouver that lies west of a line through 10th and Main, 33rd and Cambie, 45th and Granville, SW Marine Dr. and Macdonald.
A radius of 7 km includes everything west of a line from Pandora and Hastings, to Kingsway and Knight, 49th and Main and Granville and SW Marine at 70th.
Just looking roughly at my map, the 7 km radius includes about 60-70% of the area of the City of Vancouver. And a whole lotta different demographics.
For those who are multi-mode travellers, putting their bike on a bus rack or on Skytrain makes the new PGR easily accessible to them from well beyond the 7 km radius. In fact, at least 4 Skytrain and Canada Line stations lie within the 5 km radius.
My conclusion is that vast numbers of people in the CoV are getting to some of the world’s loveliest park and beach areas very easily and quickly by bicycle. And that the new PGR is an absolutely natural and most welcome way to do a 1 km part of the trip.
Thanks for these efforts on your part, Ken; they really help to put the perception of distance into perspective. I have not tried the bike tracks on buses yet, but I see many people using them.