The Great Freeway Fight is one of the key mythologies of post-war Vancouver, still referenced as a key to understanding this place. But at exactly the same time – late 1960s to 1972 – a parallel fight was happening in Seattle. While I-5 had been built (and was used explicitly by the Vancouver Planning Commission to oppose the Chinatown Freeway), Seattle citizens were organizing to oppose two more freeways.
From NextCity:
The so-called Freeway Revolt didn’t just determine the fate of Seattle’s built environment — halting the development of the proposed R.H. Thomson Expressway and Bay Freeway — it was also a galvanizing force in local politics, according to a new directory released by the Seattle Public Library.
Seattle’s Freeway Revolt: A Citizen Movement that Shaped Seattle
In the late 1960s and 1970s, a broad coalition of activists in Seattle challenged plans for a dense network of freeways traversing and girdling the city. Seattle’s freeway revolt was remarkable in its scope and diversity, uniting geographically, ethnically and socioeconomically diverse groups across the city. Their collective actions over a multi-year period succeeded in halting two major freeways and significantly downsizing a third, saving parks, shoreline and thousands of homes and businesses. …
The freeway revolt was part of a unique period of activism and social change in Seattle, from the anti-war, environmental and Black Power movements to transformation of the Seattle City Council with a “new wave” of political leaders. The well-known “Save the Pike Place Market” initiative passed at the ballot only a few months before voters defeated the R.H. Thomson and Bay Freeways; leaders of the two movements were collaborators and colleagues.
Organizations such as the Seattle Model Cities program, Central Seattle Community Council Federation, Choose an Effective City Council and the Forward Thrust campaign came into being around this time and intersected with the freeway revolt around issues of community empowerment, civic leadership and mass transit.
It’s great to oppose freeways but only when alternatives are built in parallel such as subways or trains.
Both Seattle and MetroVan didn’t do enough there, with the result of massive gridlock today.
Where the 3rd crossing to North Shore or a train? Where’s the congestion charge in either city? It’s easy to be against something. It’s much harder to be FOR other improvements as they too cost money.
Under discussed in this context is immigration and urban in-migration ie not enough is charged for it. There’s no free lunch. TX raspberry immigration places a high price on cities. This has to be discussed, and not just the economic benefits of immigration !
Damned auto spell checkers .. Editir please edit: TX raspberry to Excessive
And I will once again request that the supposedly learned contributors to this blog not use ‘gridlock’ (a fairly precise term) to mean slow moving traffic. Clarity and precision in this regard helps the discussion.
If Hwy 1 is clogged and/or backed up 1km+ because Taylor Way is clogged, because Marine Drive in W Van is clogged in BOTH directions for 1km+ (merging 6 lanes into 2), because Lionsgate bridge is clogged due to 4 lanes merging onto 1 .. that is not grid lock ?
If Seymour northbound is clogged for 10+ blocks from Granville Street bridge to W Georgia and one can walk faster than driving, that is not grid lock ?
What is it then ? Under-investment into people moving infrastructure ?
btw: folks on this blog have different worldviews, upbringings, education levels, language skills, cultural backgrounds, education focus areas, income levels, races, parental status, gender or mobility preferences. All that makes one “learned” does it not ? I come here to l;earn and to state my worldview, acknowledging that others have a right to state theirs. Many folks are experts in one particular aspect (say traffic management) while others just use the road and experience “grid lock” although perhaps it is not what the expert calls it.
Wikipedia states under grid lock https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gridlock “Gridlock is a type of traffic jam where “continuous queues of vehicles block an entire network of intersecting streets, bringing traffic in all directions to a complete standstill” .. as described above on two specific occasions. There are more that I have experienced in Vancouver.
Vancouver is choking on its own success these days, perhaps like, or worse than Seattle. Both cities under-invested in subways or rapid transit while opposing road widening .. that was my main point. It comes home to roost.
“If Hwy 1 is clogged and/or backed up 1km+ because Taylor Way is clogged, because Marine Drive in W Van is clogged in BOTH directions for 1km+ (merging 6 lanes into 2), because Lionsgate bridge is clogged due to 4 lanes merging onto 1 .. that is not grid lock ?”
No.
If Seymour northbound is clogged for 10+ blocks from Granville Street bridge to W Georgia and one can walk faster than driving, that is not grid lock ?
No.
It’s almost as if you didn’t read the second para. of your supplied link:
“The term gridlock is also incorrectly used to describe high traffic congestion with minimal flow (which is simply a traffic jam), where a blocked grid system is not involved. ”
You are welcome to state your worldview. If it is foolish and underpinned by faulty principles, you may also expect that will be pointed out to you.
You are welcome to comment. If you use a precise term imprecisely, you may also expect that will be pointed out to you.
“Vancouver is choking on its own success these days, perhaps like, or worse than Seattle.”
If you say so.
“If Hwy 1 is clogged and/or backed up 1km+ because Taylor Way is clogged, because Marine Drive in W Van is clogged in BOTH directions for 1km+ (merging 6 lanes into 2), because Lionsgate bridge is clogged due to 4 lanes merging onto 1 .. that is not grid lock ?”
No.
If Seymour northbound is clogged for 10+ blocks from Granville Street bridge to W Georgia and one can walk faster than driving, that is not grid lock ?
No.
It’s almost as if you didn’t read the second para. of your supplied link:
“The term gridlock is also incorrectly used to describe high traffic congestion with minimal flow (which is simply a traffic jam), where a blocked grid system is not involved. ”
You are welcome to state your worldview. If it is foolish and underpinned by faulty principles, you may also expect that will be pointed out to you.
You are welcome to comment. If you use a precise term imprecisely, you may also expect that will be pointed out to you.
“Vancouver is choking on its own success these days, perhaps like, or worse than Seattle.”
If you say so.
It’s grid lock to me my (young?) friend .. as traffic comes from multiple angles and it is not flowing. A traffic jam is merely unidirectional, say on a highway due to an accident. it not just a traffic jam.
“Vancouver is choking on its own success these days, perhaps like, or worse than Seattle.”
I say so because it is. Besides high house/condo prices and rents it is THE most annoying thing about otherwise lovely Vancouver !
My age is irrelevant. You provided the definition of gridlock. It is not the instances you chose. It is clear what it is. They even give a cute little picture on the link you provided.
It’s a road grid. That’s locked in all directions due to heavy traffic. Just as steel isn’t iron or aluminium, despite the similarity when viewed from a distance, gridlock is not interchangeable with a traffic jam.
Now Derrida is very proud of your PoMo approach to language to be sure, but technical terms should be used properly.
But I guess if you want to provide a link as your proof, and then disavow it when someone points out it only highlights your error, entirely up to you.
I will note you’ve been asked to be precise with the use of this expression in the past. To no avail apparently.
“While we often say “gridlock” to mean “bad traffic,” it has a technical meaning.”
http://setosa.io/blog/2014/09/02/gridlock/
“btw: folks on this blog have different worldviews, upbringings, education levels, language skills, cultural backgrounds, education focus areas, income levels, races, parental status, gender or mobility preferences.”
You were complaining about too many male cyclists commenting just the other day. Then a mom piped up and you ran away.
Gee .. I didn’t see the mom’s comment as it was drowned out in far too many pro-bike comments .. and it is not a main interest of me .. happy to see moms blogging, of course .. how about some Sikhs in big houses with triple garages in Surrey for some different perspectives why they came here, too ? [Hint: it’s not the bike lanes ]
Just look for the comments that aren’t yours. Narrows it way down to a manageable task.
Oh that is so cute. I have very few comments in the Kits Point bike lane debate. Please learn to be civil. Not everyone shares your opinions (or mine), and that is just fine. Isn’t this the point of a blog ? A debate or sharing of opinions, from multiple vantage points ?
Keep it civil my (young?) friend ? is this you http://www.latmultilingual.com/author/chriskeam/ ?
How about you keep your Miss Manners counsel to yourself and don’t dox me?
As noted previously. You are entitled to whatever opinion floats your boat.
Untrue statements will be called out for what they are.
You remain free to ignore all my posts. Don’t blame me if you can’t restrain yourself.
This is civil me. If I offered my real opinion of your ‘facts’ and perspective I’d have as many ‘deleted per editorial policy’ black marks on my record as you. So… tend to your own house before presuming your input on civility is necessary.
Hear hear ..
Usually my deleted comments have to do with facts about immigration or native affairs or politicians .. for example not one politician is currently linking very high house prices in Vanvouver to high immigration levels .. for fear of voter backlash, although of course it is the number 1 reason for it .. etc ..
Ditto the turn to conservatism in ON and AB vrry soon and the backlash on CO2 taxes and the apathy on global warming .. usually suppressed here in “green” Vancouver. Glad to hear Elizabeth May got arrested today btw .. all the while voters really dislike climate crusading http://nationalpost.com/opinion/lawrence-solomon-trudeau-will-learn-a-painful-lesson-voters-really-dislike-climate-crusading
Your deleted comments show you can’t abide by community standards. That’s all they show. Whether they are ‘factual’ is impossible to tell. They are deleted.
I will note your knowledge of Canadian indigenous issues is grossly under-informed. Weren’t you the ‘they lost the war’ commenter? Which war? You ran from that fact-check rather quickly IIRC. But you said it, so it must be true I think is your approach.
You are free to ignore my comments. As long as you post erroneous information, given time, I will post remarks that point out the error. You’re welcome.
“nations” that do not defend themselves with proper border controls, and/or enough population and/or enough military power end up losing or being amalgamated into more powerful nations / invaders. That is a fact my (young?) friend. It is just not the commonly told, politically correct narrative.
It’s a story the world over .. incl what we now call “Canada” !
Old and ignorant of the facts of history is no way to go through life son.
When in doubt, just get born white right Tommy-boy?
“On 15 May 1955, after talks which lasted for years and were influenced by the Cold War, Austria regained full independence by concluding the Austrian State Treaty with the Four Occupying Powers. On 26 October 1955, after all occupation troops had left, Austria declared its “permanent neutrality” by an act of parliament.”
Let’s presuppose your idiotic spoils of war perspective. Can you spot the double standard? Do you see the parallel between First Nations today, and post-war Austria?
It’s called racism. You are propagating it. Stop.
Let’s stop pretending please that people groups ( or tribes if you will ) of a few hundred people in the middle of nowhere are nations. Only if you are strong economically, incl but not limited to self-sustaining border control, police force, education system and healthcare system can you be called a nation. Which group or tribe in Canada today, or 200 years ago, can be called that?
I just don’t buy into this garbage of nation to nation dialogue, as true nation’s do not exist in Canada anymore, nor did they ever in enough strength to fend off the military and population might of the then French or British immigrants / invaders / occupiers. That happened. I can’t change it nor do I find it necessary today to lay guilt onto current or relatively recent immigrants. Many European or Asian immigrants came here with nothing or had their land expropriated, yet built respectable successful lives here, from nothing.
The perpetual handout mentality has to stop.
The fact that the British and French gov’ts entered into treaties with First Nations and then broke them is an inconvenient truth for you I guess. Sure wrecks the John Wayne narrative don’t it lil dogie?
BTW, Canada was a country before England had a school system of any note. Certainly First Nations had comprehensive training for their youth — but you can only see the world through the eyes of a white ‘victim’ and the lens of your indoctrination. It must suck to be so brainwashed.
Boring. You had your shot to offer intelligent, informed comment. Some of us went out of our way to offer you avenues toward a better understanding. Rejected. Fair enough. Pearls before swine as the old saying goes.
cheerio
You mentioned Austria, a nation with several million people. Hardly comparable to so called nations with 1/100th to 1/1000th Austria’s size. Size matters as scalability & sustainability matters to create functioning school, healthcare or policing/military systems.
Not all regions in Canada had treaties btw !
But let’s perpetuate the nation to nation dialogue as it sounds so sophisticated. Not exactly among equals.
Smallpox.
Figure it out.
Yes, the invaders / occupiers / explorers / colonists / immigrants (mainly unintentionally) spread diseases. We all understand that.
https://www.ictinc.ca/blog/the-impact-of-smallpox-on-first-nations-on-the-west-coast
What is your point ?
Why is it that all of North-, Central and South-America today either speaks English or Spanish (or or some Portuguese) ? Is this an example of well defended nations / tribes / people groups ? Why did this not happen in Africa or SE Asia where the Spanish or English also invaded / conquered / explored / immigrated ?
“Why is it that all of North-, Central and South-America today either speaks English or Spanish (or for some Portuguese)?”
Why is it that you forgot French?
Ever wonder what kind of a world it would be if the Boche were not defeated by the Russians and that brutal winter?
Sorry, yes, out of 1B .. maybe less than 1% speak French in The Americas. But why is English or Spanish so dominant? What does this tell us about the immigrants / invaders / oppressors / colonists / explorers ?
We’d all be goose-stepping and praising the Fuhrer. Heil Hitler! And Hollywood would not exist.
I agree with Thomas Beyer on one key point he makes: that neither Vancouver nor Seattle did enough to build alternatives to freeways when they could and should have, such as subways, trains or frequent transit routes (obviously with senior levels of government financial support). Instead, for example, we spent +$100 million (1990s dollars) widening the Lions Gate Bridge and Causeway from three lanes to, um, three lanes, and every time I’m stick in traffic merging there and see all those idling vehicles emitting GHG, I think about how much better it might have been if we’d added a fourth lane and perhaps dedicated it to frequent transit. And we continue to think short-sighted and cheap: like building the Millennium line only as far as VCC and not connecting it to the Canada Line at Cambie (talk about Mind the Gap, and thanks to Jarrett W for first pointing this out), and now like extending the Broadway subway line only as far as Arbutus. It just kicks the travel mode transfer problem down the road. And it will be even more expensive to complete the line to UBC when we eventually get around to it. Oh well, plus ça change…
…um… three lanes plus wider and safer multi-use paths.
The traffic tie-ups occur getting on to the bridge/causeway and traffic speeds up once the bunching eases off. Buses largely miss most of the delay. It would have been much much more expensive to add a lane as it would require an entirely new bridge and, no doubt, it would have ended up six lanes if it went that way.
The loss of thousands of trees in the park.
More traffic piling into downtown Vancouver and getting congested there instead, making the city less attractive to everyone including those in their cars.
No thanks. We dodged a bullet on that one.
It’s a no brainer that the Millennium Line go at least as far as Canada Line and that’s been an annoying gap for far too long. But the transfer at Arbutus won’t occur at all for the half of passengers who don’t go further. I’m still rooting for LRT from Main/Science World to UBC instead. More flexible, more resilient, more appropriate for the neighbourhoods it goes through. More money for other important projects – to provide better transit on the North Shore for example.
How many folks on this blog from the ever more congested north shore ? Crossing is THE main issue ie THE main nuisance due to under-investment into infrastructure. How about a double decker Lionsgate bridge (same width ie not tree loss) and a tunnel under W Georgia, with a $5-$10 toll ? or a third crossing ? Or a train ? Where’s the Lonsdale Quay to Dunadarave subway plan in the 2040 Transportation Plan ?
They voted no.
This was not on the menu. Of course they voted no to a PST increase and no meaningful traffic or transit improvements on or to the north shore. OF COURSE.
I bet many NVaners or WVaner would be happy to pay $3 per crossing if there was actually a better flow through, or a train to downtown. Happy to.
If our region had voted yes we’d be five years ahead on the transit plan. Surrey LRT and the Broadway Extension would be nearing completion. We’d be well under way on plans for the next phase which would surely be more than the 50% increase in Seabus sailings with the commensurate increase in connecting buses in that plan. But they voted no. As did most municipalities. But they can’t complain. They didn’t rally the troops to pay mobility pricing either.
But stop dreaming of a new MV crossing to the North Shore. It’s highly unlikely to ever happen. Expanding the SN crossing to eight lanes perhaps but hopefully two lanes dedicated to transit.
“Another is that shutting off the engine briefly and then restarting it consumes more fuel and produces more pollution than allowing the engine to idle. Although this may once have been the case, modern fuel-injected engines need almost no warm-up time, and restarting a warm engine consumes less fuel and emits less pollution than idling for five to 10 seconds.”
As with many traffic issues, the solution lies in driver behaviour and education, not additional lanes.
https://psmag.com/environment/american-idling-ecological-engine-running-3771
Both Seattle and Portland have I-5 and parallel alternate Interstate routes
(Seattle just has I-405 and Portland has both I-405 and I-205).
Each also have State Route (SR) freeways
(i.e. SR167 through Auburn which parallels I-5 south of Renton, and which, like I-405, has HOT lanes)
Notwithstanding the freeway revolt or demolition (in the case of Portland) of some infrastructure, both cities have extensive freeway systems.
They may get congested yes, but they exist and arguably remove through-traffic from local arterial streets.
That is somewhat different than Vancouver.
Thankfully for us.
Ask the residents of East 1st, 12th, McGill etc how thankful they are Ron. The traffic didn’t disappear, it travels on residential streets. Hardly a “win”.
Somebody has to live beside the freeways Bob. And when they get congested, as they always do, then traffic spills right back onto the surface arterials. You don’t reduce MV traffic by building more MV infrastructure.
So we have busy arterials but we don’t have giant swaths of concrete through the city. We din’t destroy existing neighbourhoods with 30m wide MV sewers. A giant win.