What do PT readers think of this:
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From The Sun:
Plaza opens up in redesign plan
The bark mulch will be removed if a proposal to redesign the plaza by Nick Milkovitch Architects is approved by the City of Vancouver. Installed in its place will be a flat surface of custom precast pavers and accent granite, which will be able to accommodate chairs and other seating for large events such as the International Jazz Festival.
The fountain, which has always disrupted gatherings because of its placement in the centre of the plaza, will also be removed. It no longer functions and will be placed in storage.
The plan will also mean the removal of all trees in the plaza. They’re considered to be either in poor condition or unsuitable varieties for placement in a large urban plaza. Trees will be planted on the western edge to continue the line of maple trees along Hornby and expanded from two to four trees to create a “bosque” (forested area), according to the architectural proposal submitted to the city.
A dramatic ring suspended above the plaza, which was part of an earlier design, has been dropped from the final proposal.
“Creating an open centre is essential for the success of the design,” the proposal says. …
Most of the plaza will be open space.
On the east side along Howe will be an expanded bus shelter, utility outlets and covered seating. It could be used for a food/beverage stand and/or tourist kiosk. Robson Square will be united into one precinct when the pink concrete paving is extended along Howe, Hornby and the Georgia street sidewalks.
Fixed seating on wooden benches will be installed along the edges of the plaza. Some will have backrests, some won’t. Along Hornby within the bosque will be two long benches that vary in height to accommodate people with impaired mobility.
Power connections will be installed in several locations. Tall light poles will flank the space on either side.
A community open house is scheduled from 5 to 8 p.m. on Nov. 26 at 800 Robson St. — UBC (the entrance next to the skating rink). Written submissions on the proposal can be sent to troy.tenney@vancouver.ca and Troy Tenney, City of Vancouver, 453 West 12th Avenue, V5Y 1V4.
I kinda liked the ring.
What isn’t this space being designed by a Landscape Architect? Milkovitch is an Architect
In this case, Dan, I feel an architect’s view would be better. Too many LAs would try to cut up the uniform paving with token storm water features like rain gardens and bioswales, which are too small to be effective in urban environments. Many LAs are also hopelessly inexperienced in the long-term maintenance aspects and operational costs of these features. This is not to say that daylighted streams and hectares of wetland downstream from urban development are not highly effective, but anything less in the urban core will just silt up, become garbage receptacles, present a tripping hazard to large crowds, and present high labour costs to maintain and inevitably repair.
As a Landscape Architect I take offense to your generalizations about our lack of knowledge on construction and maintenance issues and the perceived notion that we are obsessed with filling the space with bioswales. All I see in the above photo is another conservative, grey colourless Vancouver space.
As a former landscape architect with decades in the private and public sectors, I have seen too many private consultants propose landscapes with no conception of life cycle operational issues. Rhododendrons in riparian habitat. Leaky, highly-damaging and extraordinarily expensive green roofs. Butterfly meadows that become junior climax forests after one year … or a blackberry patch. Soaker pits and infiltration areas (“rain” gardens”) that are easily defeated by 70 vertical metres of subsurface glacial till. Little understanding of the urban design overlap with architecture and planning. And an expanse of saturated, muddy lawn in the core that is supposed to accommodate gatherings of thousands of people year round.
This space is either a park or a programmable, hard-surfaced social gathering loci. It cannot be both. You may see it as a “conservative” grey hard paved area (which I think is a more appropriate description of mall parking lots). When it’s filled to capacity by outdoor concert goers, cultural events and the occasional protest, then I see it as a rather liberal vehicle of expression of our plurality. It’s the stage that allows the show to happen.
HAPA
The Atlas cedars in front of the building will be missed. There are very few mature Atlas’s anywhere. They have a loose canopy and do not block the entire facade as another species would. As far as I am concerned the Cedrus atlantica are part of the heritage.
I will also miss the magnolias at the corners, two of which have a spread of about 10m and are stunning when they bloom brilliant white in the early spring and greatly soften the harsh traffic on Georgia. The maples that are replacing them are ubiquitous and nothing special, except for their close 5m spacing (which, incidently, pisses off the city staff and is hard to get approved elsewhere), an idea that originated with Cornelia Oberlander who worked with Arthur Erikson on Robson Square.
Otherwise, the hard paving is completely apropos for the intended use as a much-enhanced and truer-to-the-notion public square. Most people associate the space with protest. That is democracy. But some of us really look forward to more frequent concerts and cultural events there.
Same. Great to see the open and flexible space but do I really like the Atlas cedars in front of the building.
If the materials hold up, this is an improvement. The current plaza is neither functional nor aesthetically interesting. It’s good the new design makes the space more flexible. Lastly, fountains are a dumb waste of resources; costly to maintain and no more than glorified urinals during water-restrictive periods, which are likely to continue in the coming years. They are very rarely worth the effort.
The plaza at City Hall in Surrey is a clear example of what happens when you let architects design public space.
No no no.
A very good landscape architectural firm (Hapa) is on the team.
Good to know. Joe Fry is a creative guy.
I hope to see no scrimping on the things that make outdoor events sing in limited spaces, like an abundance of outdoor electrical outlets, a defined stage area (perhaps even covered with a glass canopy extended over a portion of the audience area), dynamic year round colourful lighting and cool fixtures, intricate geometric patterns and textures in the paving, scuplture with a vetting process far more mature than we have had before, provision for outdoor movie projection and laser shows, division into outdoor rooms for several smaller concurrent events, deep public consultation, and an overall sense of permanence and outlook toward the future and our international city.
I wouldn’t reject water out of hand. Water jets could be embedded in the paving, and with a modest underground cistern to recurculate the supply and a small treatment plant the water can dance, travel and delight the public in digitized rythms, especially kids who should be encouraged to use it as a waterplay feature in summer. A crashing & spilling traditional fountain was often part of Edwardian or Geogian architecure and placed on a building axis, such as a main entrance. The problem with the previous fountain was that it had dated 60s hippie motifs that had nothi8ng to do with art or courthouse visual narratives and occupied the centre of what became one of the premier public gathering places in Vancouver. But what if a better fountain with a timeless design (e.g. use a replica of Bill Reid’s Spirit of Haida Gwaii as a focal piece) was placed on the same axis closer to Georgia Street (or on a cross axis) to provide better refuge and traffic noise attenuation to the plaza?
On the other hand, please …… no useless berms, earthen mounds or soft lawn areas where people are supposed to gather (there just isn’t enough space, and they won’t stand up to the wear). The execption would be to save the existing magnolias and Atlas cedars in situ in planting beds with a decent upstand wall surround. Resist the impermanent and passing fetish for fashion. Establish a decent budget so that a good portion of the paving can be high quality stone and not the 100% ubiquitous grey and dog-biscuit unit pavers of Jack Poole Plaza. Let universal accessibility inform the design.
Hoping for the best!
This example from Bordeaux would have been perfect.
http://travel.nationalgeographic.com/travel/traveler-magazine/photo-contest/2011/entries/60009/view/
Perfect!
True. Surrey City Hall’s architecture team was clearly guided by a secret crush on Boston’s Government Center; maybe with fewer earthen tones. Still, it’s a lot better than commissioning traffic engineers to give a ‘makeover’ to an Olmsted park.
http://www.buffalonews.com/opinion/buffalo-news-editorials/lasalle-park-is-finally-getting-the-makeover-befitting-its-waterfront-prime-location-20150708
The proposal built on what I have considered the “less bad” proposal and address most of the shortcoming of the previously presented one as pointed out here:
https://voony.wordpress.com/2013/10/09/the-vag-north-plaza-redesign/
(I appreciate the integration of the “versatile” bench, I suggested in the post)
So it is a decently good proposal, However, I still believe a more formal organization of the space (with “noise screen” from Georgia street), bringing more focus on the Rattensbury building could even be better:
https://voony.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/vancouverredcarpethapa.jpg
Open up the FRONT door of the VAG and it would be much better.
I am OK with this proposal but still prefer plazas that have more tree cover. It is still possible to have a plaza with pavement and trees that don’t interfere with events.
Yes indeed. You can design a series large square planters that hold trees, each with a slot for forklift prongs to be moved around like that have on Auckland’s waterfront. Also you can design a series of large movable planters that have lockable wheels like a project I worked on in New Plymouth NZ called Lower Brougham Street. These solutions allow for flexible space creation and multi-programming.
After 30 years of urban design I have come to love permanence.
Hmmm…..i was hoping for a thicker row of trees.
http://www.bryantpark.org/static/galleries/locations/fencing_map.jpg
So i could sit like this:
http://images.boomsbeat.com/data/images/full/35070/bryant-park-new-york.jpg
Oh well. Sigh.
P
Something more like this. It could even have pockets of interior trees. The trees do not need to be in planters, they could simply be surrounded by a circle of permeable ‘pavers.’
Agreed. More trees so that this plaza could be enjoyed by more people on a hot summer day. As proposed it will be a huge urban heat island with reflective paving that will not encourage people to linger and enjoy.
More seating oriented for conversations would be appreciated. Perhaps a water feature activated by rainwater? Something for children to interact with? All these things could be accommodated without precluding the ability to use the space for large gatherings or concerts.
Given the lack of permanent programming indicated by the design, I would hope that the VAG (or whoever takes over after they decamp) commits to actively programming the space throughout the year.
At 24,000 m2 Bryant Park is 5.5 times larger than the VAG plaza. There they have room to program the space for practically anything short of an NFL playoff game.
I challenge anyone reading to actually design a space at the VAG site or 5,000+ people to gather during many scheduled events a year (think of Hanukka) while affording the tree canopy and lawn space indicated above. You may have enough room to provide significant shade and seating at the periphery, maybe expand on the bosque idea a bit, but occupying the centre with anything but hard paving will preclude the ability to hold events. Just look at the issues with mud they already have, and the reaction to fill the space with that award-winning component from the TimberWest School of Urban Design, bark mulch.
Beg your pardon: Hanukkah.
I love it.
How many people does Jack Poole plaza hold? Other plazas in the City? Just curious.
I like the idea of hardscape with that can be transformed. Water should really be considered in this design. Take a look at how it animates the College at Kings Cross in London with a focal point of movement, light and play for kids.
https://www.kingscross.co.uk/fountains
http://tinyurl.com/nq67zds
Then consider moveable seating a la the Jardain Du Luxembourg:
http://unlikelydiplomat.com/2011/04/20/seating-hierarchy-in-the-jardin-du-luxembourg/
“that can be transformed” ….. [frustrating that you can’t edit a comment to correct typos!]
The beauty about flush embedded water jets is that the plaza space and active events are not obstructed when they are off. Dancing water can animate a corner of the plaza year round, day and night. Kids would love splashing in it May through September. Water columns can be illuminated at night year round with coloured light fixtures embedded with the jets. The water movement patterns and light sequences can be programmed together and timed to music, which introduces yet another dimension.
The only thing stopping the water flow would be scheduled events, freezing temperatures and occasional maintenance. There may be weight restrictions for service vehicles, but that area can be demarcated with different paving and edge treatments. The water can drain to the cistern via very narrow, almost invisible slot drains placed in harmony with the paving pattern. They are now becoming a standard in European plazas.
I like it because of the simplicity. Too many plazas in downtown Vancouver are overdesigned, with too many random staircases, ornaments, and obstructions blocking the central open space. Even the new Telus Garden put the elevator box right in the corner of Georgia and Seymour–a space that could that could have been more effective if it was just open for people to mingle in. So I like this design because it’s a flat open space that allows people to simply “BE” in it.
The property is 78m wide and the portico face is 52m from the Georgia Street property line. The proportions of the space are quite different than those shown in the rendering. The Imperialistic Vision of this public place seems designed to defeat the urban camper, never the less can’t we have some fun with water, maybe add hydronic slab heating from the waste heat of nearby buildings, and maybe make the place a little homier.
I was on the original design team hired by the City of Vancouver, along with Nick Milkovich Architects, Hapa Landscape Architects, and Matthew Soules Architect. I resigned at the beginning of this year when it seemed that the project was getting hopelessly bogged down in a standoff between the City and the province of BC, which owns the land and also the fountain. At that stage it appeared that the province was going to insist on more soft, park-like landscaping and possibly even retaining the fountain, and the redesign was reduced to essentially a replacement of the roof membrane covering the underground VAG storage vault that extends beneath about half of the space. In addition, the City could not seem to get serious about the capital budget required (it is, frankly, laughably inadequate), nor did it show any enthusiasm for the critical need to have a robust, long term operations and maintenance budget that includes ongoing programming of the new space. On top of that, there was (and remains) the ongoing uncertainly around the VAG’s relocation plans, and what that might mean for the relationship of this space to the old courthouse building, including the issue of reopening the front door facing the plaza.
The design team has done its best under these very constrained circumstances and I can tell you that we all want to see a high-quality public open space that is functional, flexible and fully programmable, with all the necessary support systems and infrastructure in place. We believe that this space was historically, and should once again become, the most significant central public square in Vancouver, which it has lacked for a long time: a place where people congregate to celebrate, demonstrate, debate, protest, party and recreate. All great cities have such spaces. This means a primarily hard-surfaced open space, meant to accommodate a wide range and scale of uses and events. Not another park. I think that while we can always quibble about the design details, and a more realistic capital budget would have resulted in a more comprehensive redesign, this project will go a long way towards providing this vital role for the residents of our city.
Lance, thank you for this background information. I couldn’t agree more about the importance of developing a multi-funtional activity and spatial program. Our experience with hard-surfaced squares and plazas is obviously too limited even, surprisingly, with some designers and academics to generate a wider understanding of their huge value to a city.
Thanks Lance for the anecdotal account of the design team machinations.
I must note however that your rationale for a hard surfaced plaza is quite off the mark from an historical perspective. The Bartholomew Plan of 1928 contains a photo (page 147) illustrating Rattenbury’s building replete with an extensive lawn and horseshoe driveway off Georgia Street.
What is being proposed here is a space that shall never again see a picnic blanket on a summer day, a baguette, a slice of cheese and perhaps a glass of Perrier with live jazz in the air.
What is being proposed is an anonymous space that is both all things and nothing to many, where we might hope for some animation, perhaps an elderly figure with a bag of chips and bird seeds engulfed in a feathery cloud of squawking seagulls and pigeons followed along by a murder of crows.
We should not engage in historical revisionism with added conceits of grand public plazas that are nothing but rather small and squat when viewed in true perspective.
“I must note however that your rationale for a hard surface plaza is quite off the mark from an historical perspective” […]
Ok. Let’s have a look at the historical perspective that predates Bartholomew by about 16 years (thanks to Voony):
https://voony.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/vancouver-courthouse-1912.jpg
Right from the beginning there was a need for a public gatherning place for thousands of people on this site. No doubt the lawn was chewed up after the one indicaed above.
May I recommend spreading a picnic blanket on the lawn at Harbour Green Park only five minutes away on the waterfront?
If you look more closely the thousands of people are not on the site but rather they are standing on the surrounding streets, a feat that likely could not be accomplished today. The performance takes place on the lawn around which the horse shoe driveway can be clearly seen. A lawn is not a square, it is a foreground to a building, or as Bartholomew put it “the grey pile”. The photo records a one off circumstance of great pomp and ceremony, but that does not make the space a square.