Tessa, a regular PT reader, wonders:
I’ve just been noticing recently how far apart stations on the skytrain system are compared to other metro systems in Canada …
On the Expo Line, there’s one station every 1.45 kilometres; on the Millennium line there’s only one station every 1.56 kilometres. There’s very few, basically, and most of them are in lower density areas. That would explain ridership in the 40,000’s.
On the Canada line, however, it’s one station every 1.2 kilometres. In fact, if YVR 3, Capstain Way and 57th Street Stations are built, that will become basically one station every kilometre, which is much more in line with other metros.
Now for the comparison. Toronto has slightly more than one station every one kilometre for the whole network, while Montreal has one station every .96 kilometres.
I have to wonder how much ridership would be affected if we just built more stations along the existing route, and I also wonder where such stations might go (possibly between Edmunds and Royal Oak on Rumble? Between New West and 22nd Street? Maybe Nanaimo on the Millennium line? How about between Sapperton and Columbia at Richmond Street?).
Basically, I was wondering if I’m out to lunch on this idea, or if anyone else has noticed that there could be more stations on existing routes to better take advantage of existing infrastructure.
I think while our stations are spread out farther then most it hasn’t dampered it’s success, we also enjoy the highest average speed of any Canadian metro system, in large part due to the larger spacing.
Would the additional people you might attract offset the amount of people you might lose with longer commute times? It’s a fine line but I feel we are pretty well served. With TODs spurting up along the lines most people along the line live near the stations already.
Also can you clarify the 40K number? Expo and Millenium serve just over 270K/day, even if that includes return trips that still puts the number at ~135K/day.
40k refers just to the Millennium line. I pulled it from a translink report dated 2005/06, but I don’t have it on me where I am currently. I should be able to track down a link for you if you like.
I wasn’t aware it had the highest average speed, and that would definately help, and would in part be explained by the difference, though I don’t think either Toronto or Montreal have suffered from the spacing. It could also have to do with the priorities of the transit planners or the era they’re from.
As Gordon mentioned to me, money is probably also a big factor, but it seems strange then that the Canada Line has so many more stations then if that is the only factor. Density of the neighbourhoods could also be a big factor. But it also is a big deterrent if you have to walk 15 minutes to the skytrain in the rain when a closer station might shave that time in half, say. I know, I’ve been there.
I think one thing to consider is where the guideway would allow for an addtional station, i.e. where it was flat and straight. There needs to be room for the station, plus space front and after the station where all is straight. Not sure if these other places you’ve mentioned would lend themselves to a station based on this criteria.
My memory is that there is some straight track near Clarke Dr that meets this criteria, but I’m not sure where else does. Would be an interesting first step – where geometrically can you fit a station and work back from there…
I imagine the 40K is quite old as the M-Line required 75K per day to break even and it has been in the black for numerous years now 2006 I beleive. If you could find a link for the 40K I would love to see it, maybe during it’s initial year but 40K seems low even for that.
With train spacing every 1.5Km, that still puts most people within walking distance if they live anywhere near the line, there is a point of diminishing returns (please a minority by inconviencing the majority) I imagine that’s why we don’t see any metro with much less then 1km average spacing.
Ridership on the Millennium is now over 70,000.
More stations on the SkyTrain lines would not be a great idea. Arguable there are already too many stations along the Millennium Line, Lake City Way, for example. Fewer stations help focus transit oriented development create a critical mass of businesses, services and housing that results in more walkable neighbourhoods.
The fast travel trips created by the large station spacings allow the system to function sort of as a regional rail system allowing longer distance commuting that can effectively compete with driving. More stations would effective kill this advantage.
Elevated stations are around $20 million a piece. That money would be better spent on more buses, system expansion or even streetcars.
In addition, the more stations, the greater the number of trains that are required to maintain the same level of service. This again increases costs with little or no increases in ridership.
Regarding flat and straight stations…
I used to love watching trains come into the stations when I lived in Japan. The platforms were curved, and when the Shinkansen came into the station going mach 2 and hit the curve… a beautiful sight indeed!
🙂
The Portland streetcar downtown also has a station with a curved platform…
All these comments are really interesting and thanks for the feedback, but I have to wonder, if too many stations are a problem, then is it the opinion of some that the Canada Line has too many stations? Or will if it is built out? Is there a feeling Toronto’s or Montreal’s system don’t compete with cars? When discussing this in abstract terms, speed is a great consideration, but convenience matters, and I doubt too many Canada Line riders will find their way to Cambie Village, for example, simply because it’s too far from a station. That’s the same reason I expect someone who drives a car at Cambie and 18th wouldn’t pack it in with the Canada Line, and same with Cambie and 57th, whereas I don’t know how much an impact those stations will have on ridership from Richmond. Just my thoughts. Again, however, I understand where people are coming from in the comments.
Because it was requested, I pulled the numbers from here. Page 5 lists daily ons and offs at each station, and I simply divided by two to get boardings alone. It’s obviously not exact. http://www.scribd.com/doc/509770/Broadway-Station-Study
Also, I think a station with a curved platform would be very rad.
Of course! Further reading has realized my fatal flaw: my numbers didn’t include people entering from Expo line stations, it was closer to 58,000 in 2005, likely much higher now as has been suggested.
There was apparently plans for a Woodlands station in between Columbia and Sapperton — the trains still have the station announcement programmed into them: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qr6qfKwYEJk
I think the spacing is fine through most of the system. I think a station has to fit into a larger overall plan and vision. So fitting an extra station just because we want to create one or just because there is a major street is not enough reason.
I personally dislike the Bloor-Danforth Line in Toronto because of the number of stops. Many of the stations are within walking distance of each other and the trip is really slow from Downtown to Kipling in Etobicoke.
However, for the Canada Line, we could see the need for extra stations in certain spots like Capstan Way and West 57th Ave if there are bigger plans for development in that area. That’s where the larger overall vision has to guide where stations will go.
That’s my two cents.
Lots of factors come into play:
There’s cost. The RAV Line was initially proposed to have 4 downtown Vancouver stations, but Nelson Station and Dunsmuir Station were consolidated into Robson Station (which then migrated north a block to connect with West Vancouver buses on Georgia) – and that was even before the RFP was issued. We also know that Westminster Station was deleted and Richmond Centre Station moved farther north due to cost savings following the selection of InTransitBC. BC Tel refused to contribute to the cost of a station next to the Boot on Kingsway, so there’s a flat section of track there, but no station. The future Woodlands Station has been mentioned – but it would appear that the developer of the nearby Woodlands housing development is not contributing to its cost (and/or the City of New Westminster is not pushing for it).
There’s integration with the neighbourhoods and City plans. Is there development potential and/or existing density (i.e. 57th Ave. => George Pearson Hospital site / 33rd Ave. => St. Vincent and RCMP sites)? If a station area is not readily redevelopable, additional stations probably aren’t necessary. You tend to see stations near either existng density or larger parcels ripe for development (as opposed to the political minefield of upzoning single family homes to multi-family (i.e. as is absent at Broadway & Commercial Station, Nanamo Station and 29th Ave. Station in Vancouver). An M-Line station was originally proposed for Bainbridge – but it was moved to Sperling instead (next to the Dairyland site).
There’s tie-ins to the local bus routes (which feed the line in the suburbs). In largely suburban areas walking to the station is not feasible The Canada Line is built across a more regular grid system of roadways – so station spacing is closer together for that reason also (I wouldn’t necessarily say south Vancouver is denser).
There’s neighbourhood opposition. I recall the M-Line was to have a station west of Lougheed Station (near the highrises), but the residents complained. The proposed station at Nanaimo and Grandview Highway may have suffered the same fate (it was first downgraded to “future station” then deleted completely). Mallairdville protested a planned M-Line station on Lougheed highway, so the guideway was moved to the south side of the TCH and there’s no station between Braid and Lougheed Town Centre.
For the RAV Line multiple account evaluation studies and the ridership studies – see Canada Line website archives – the catchment area for each station was calculated using a radius of 400m (i.e. 800m between stations for continuous coverage). There is a catchment gap between Yaletown-Roundhouse station and Vancouver City Centre Station.
That said, I’ve heard complaints that the Canada Line is slow because of all of the stops (Broadway City Hall and Olympic Village are very close). In Toronto, in some cases, you can actually see the next station by looking down the tunnel, which does slow things down i.e. Dundas Station and Queen Station.
BTW – the reason the M-Line isn’t/wasn’t up to full ridership (2006 projections?) (but was very close) is that it is an incomplete line – Phase 2 was never built. The PMC Line (now Evergreen Line) was to feed into it and the Vancouver West segment was to provide the end point destinations on the Broadway corridor(now extended to UBC?).
More stations means more stops, which means a slower trip, taking the “rapid” out of Rapid Transit.
I have always thought that the Skytrain system is more for longer distance trips therefore fewer stops, and fewer stations.
Let the local buses and (future) light rail/trolley system stop every block or two.
Interesting question.
I think the trade-off is between
perceived time walking to station
vs.
perceived time-on-board.
My personal preference is the shorter walk (and that presumably at both ends.)
Once on-board I am reasonably content to just sit and space-out or read etc etc. I think too much emphasis is placed on on-board system speed rather than overall door-to-door effort/convenience. Thus I like closer-spaced stations. Of course that is more expensive.
Others may/will disagree.
Of course for a really long-commute the time-onboard becomes a bigger factor.
I don’t know the Vancouver lines but my rules of thumb is that the longer the line (and expected rides) the farther apart the stations. Close-together stations for the interesting parts of town and then spread them out when it becomes boring.
Possibly a future station for the False Creek flats along Terminal but well before Main Street. Develop over the rail lines — pour concrete slabs over the tracks and put in housing and commercial. Create a whole neighbourhood located 20 feet or so above the existing ground level. Zone some innocuous light industrial that can co-exist with other uses — non-polluting, high end R&D for example that has a reasonably high density of employees. No warehousing or land intensive manufacturing (all made in China and Mexico, anyways). Get the heavy truck traffic out of the area, too close to downtown to warehouse, poor use of high value land.
gord,
one observation of toronto’s subway that i always had (having folks living in north york and beyond) was that the distances between stations were way bigger than skytrain here north of eglinton. this is a result of the suburban character of the northern reaches of the Y-U-S line. so, your calculations are right, but they don’t tell the whole story. for example, the average distance between stations is 1.6 km…and even bigger when you consider that north york station is a (needed) infill station; the original average distance was over 2 km. this is looking to be pretty standard for the 905 extensions.
from my time in paris, i have to say that it was frustrating sometimes when you noticed the trains running (slowly) and stopping again after only 300 metres or so in some cases. sure, the RER is there, but if you’re not making a grand trip across town, it won’t much help.
i’ll say though that i would love to see a station at 16th avenue on the canada line. i find it somewhat criminal that the new big-box-esque retailers get two stations (2nd ave and broadway) and those merchants in cambie village are left in the dust. that neighbourhood truly deserves it. 33rd and 57th are not really necessary for right now. i don’t even know why they have remained on the drawing board.
so, yeah. basically, it’s should be site-specific. no point in having stations in low density areas just for the sake of it; it would just slow things down needlessly.
here’s an idea, though. when the evergreen and ubc lines get built, how about building passing track on the millennium line? (i.e. trains bound for coquitlam would only stop at commercial, brentwood and lougheed.)